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 | | From: | jgreenfield at seol.net.au | | Subject: | Re: Automakers Put Hydrogen Power On the Fast Track | | Date: | 19 Jan 2005 00:27:44 -0800 |
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 | Ed Earl Ross wrote:
> Dr. you missed sci.energy.hydrogen, where the experts live.
>
> Personally, I'd rather the government spend my money biodiesel
> research rather than hydrogen fuel cells.
You may be right, Ed, but don't get excited about the economics of bio.
Many oil producing crops are very "hungry"; they deplete the soil,
meaning that either uneconomic crop rotations must be used, or large
amounts of costly fertiliser applied (and mineral fertilisers running
out!)
If we go bio, we will probably have to go genetic modification as well
:-(
How about thermal/wind power ----> electricity ----> ye old battery
terminal ---> H2 ?
Jim G
PS: I forgot all the weedicides and insecticides...............
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| | From: | Ed Earl Ross | | Subject: | Re: Automakers Put Hydrogen Power On the Fast Track | | Date: | Wed, 19 Jan 2005 19:32:51 GMT |
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| jgreenfield@seol.net.au wrote:
> Ed Earl Ross wrote:
>
>>Dr. you missed sci.energy.hydrogen, where the experts live.
>>
>>Personally, I'd rather the government spend my money biodiesel
>>research rather than hydrogen fuel cells.
>
>
>
> You may be right, Ed, but don't get excited about the economics of bio.
> Many oil producing crops are very "hungry"; they deplete the soil,
> meaning that either uneconomic crop rotations must be used, or large
> amounts of costly fertiliser applied (and mineral fertilisers running
> out!)
> If we go bio, we will probably have to go genetic modification as well
> :-(
>
> How about thermal/wind power ----> electricity ----> ye old battery
> terminal ---> H2 ?
> Jim G
> PS: I forgot all the weedicides and insecticides ...............
>
The best crop for biodiesel production is probably marine algae.
The growth rate is about 10 times better than land crops. These
crops would not displace existing land crops. In fact, the residue
from making biodiesel can be used for fertilizer for land crops.
Some estimates say it is already less expensive to produce than
oil, especially if you consider environmental effects as a cost of
using oil.
It is already being produced for commercial use in small
quantities. All that is really necessary is to ramp up production.
Algae can sequester 100% of CO2 and N2O being emitted from a coal
or gas fired power plant. It is grown in ponds or bioreactors near
a power plant, for profit. Whereas, other methods of CO2
sequestration are merely an expense.
Algae may be used to purify sewage, and produce an income.
Eliminating the need for mineral fertilizers.
In the US, where gasoline is still relatively inexpensive, it may
take a a few years for pump prices of biodiesel to be less than
petroleum diesel. Sooner or later it will happen. If congress
passed a fair environmental tax on oil, I'm confident biodiesel
would beat the cost of petroleum diesel, now.
Electricity from the grid is not yet, and may never be, practical
for transportation.
The H2 economy is years off at best, because research has not found
viable solutions. Moreover, it requires a very expensive
infrastructure replacement. IMO, it will never happen. Biodiesel is
clean (ecofriendly) and doesn't require rebuilding every gas
station and replacing every vehicle, in the world.
Battery power is great for neighborhood electric vehicles and
intra-city commuting. However, batteries cannot be used for long
distance travel. Folks don't buy many battery powered vehicles. It
appears they never will.
Algae are very sensitive creatures. You cannot use weedicides,
insecticides and other unfriendly chemicals.
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| | From: | Tom Simonds | | Subject: | Re: Automakers Put Hydrogen Power On the Fast Track | | Date: | Sun, 23 Jan 2005 11:28:30 -0500 |
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| We can already do battery cars that go 200 miles on a charge - that is
sufficient for all but the longer trips which are usually made on the
interstate highway system. So all we need do is put battery swapping
stations along the highways. You whip in, they put a fully charged
battery in.
Of course...where does the electricity come from...coal? Battery
electric vehicles presupose that we have some clean scheme for making
the elect. Either renewables or nuclear.
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| | From: | Don Lancaster | | Subject: | Re: Automakers Put Hydrogen Power On the Fast Track | | Date: | Sun, 23 Jan 2005 09:46:55 -0700 |
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| Tom Simonds wrote:
>
> We can already do battery cars that go 200 miles on a charge - that is
> sufficient for all but the longer trips which are usually made on the
> interstate highway system. So all we need do is put battery swapping
> stations along the highways. You whip in, they put a fully charged
> battery in.
>
> Of course...where does the electricity come from...coal? Battery
> electric vehicles presupose that we have some clean scheme for making
> the elect. Either renewables or nuclear.
The problem with "battery swapping stations" is that millions of unused
batteries will have to be lying around, thus dramatically increasing the
amortized vehicle cost per mile.
http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf
--
Many thanks,
Don Lancaster
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
voice: (928)428-4073 email: don@tinaja.com
Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com
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| | From: | Don Lancaster | | Subject: | Re: Automakers Put Hydrogen Power On the Fast Track | | Date: | Sun, 23 Jan 2005 16:02:20 -0700 |
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| Don Lancaster wrote:
>
> Tom Simonds wrote:
> >
> > We can already do battery cars that go 200 miles on a charge - that is
> > sufficient for all but the longer trips which are usually made on the
> > interstate highway system. So all we need do is put battery swapping
> > stations along the highways. You whip in, they put a fully charged
> > battery in.
> >
> > Of course...where does the electricity come from...coal? Battery
> > electric vehicles presupose that we have some clean scheme for making
> > the elect. Either renewables or nuclear.
>
> The problem with "battery swapping stations" is that millions of unused
> batteries will have to be lying around, thus dramatically increasing the
> amortized vehicle cost per mile.
>
> http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf
>
> --
> Many thanks,
>
> Don Lancaster
> Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
> voice: (928)428-4073 email: don@tinaja.com
>
> Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com
Assuming a "gas" station exchanges 240 batteries per day and it takes
ten hours to charge a battery, then they would have to keep at least 100
batteries in stock at all times for each customer.
Thus raising the cost per mile of electric vehicles by at least two
orders of magnitude.
--
Many thanks,
Don Lancaster
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
voice: (928)428-4073 email: don@tinaja.com
Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com
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| | From: | Carl Ijames | | Subject: | Re: Automakers Put Hydrogen Power On the Fast Track | | Date: | Mon, 24 Jan 2005 02:03:34 GMT |
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| > Assuming a "gas" station exchanges 240 batteries per day and it takes
> ten hours to charge a battery, then they would have to keep at least
> 100
> batteries in stock at all times for each customer.
And how many kW will be drawn while simultaneously charging 100
batteries? How many more power lines and substations to feed all those
charging stations?
> Thus raising the cost per mile of electric vehicles by at least two
> orders of magnitude.
Um, they need 340 batteries to keep 240 customers on the road, assuming
a uniform exchange rate of 10 per hour as you did (peak times make this
even worse, of course), so it raises the cost of the battery packs for
those 240 cars by 340/240 or 42%, not 100-fold.
--
Regards,
Carl Ijames carl.ijames at verizon.net
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| | From: | Eric Swanson | | Subject: | Re: Automakers Put Hydrogen Power On the Fast Track | | Date: | Mon, 24 Jan 2005 00:42:09 +0000 (UTC) |
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| In article , tsimonds@theworld.com says...
>
>We can already do battery cars that go 200 miles on a charge - that is
>sufficient for all but the longer trips which are usually made on the
>interstate highway system. So all we need do is put battery swapping
>stations along the highways. You whip in, they put a fully charged
>battery in.
>
>Of course...where does the electricity come from...coal? Battery
>electric vehicles presupose that we have some clean scheme for making
>the elect. Either renewables or nuclear.
I saw a TV story several years ago about a guy in S. Cal that worked for GM
designing the electronic controls for the Impact. He has a car running on
batteries, but for longer trips, he had a small trailer with an IC powered
generator. Sort of like a Hybrid, but with the engine only used for longer
trips, thus there was no need to haul the extra weight of the IC engine and
generator for most in town uses. The IC engine could run on ethanol or
biodiesel. It might be the best of both worlds.
--
Eric Swanson --- E-mail address: e_swanson(at)skybest.com :-)
--------------------------------------------------------------
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| | From: | Ed Earl Ross | | Subject: | Re: Automakers Put Hydrogen Power On the Fast Track | | Date: | Mon, 24 Jan 2005 01:08:50 GMT |
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| Eric Swanson wrote:
> In article , tsimonds@theworld.com says...
>
>>We can already do battery cars that go 200 miles on a charge - that is
>>sufficient for all but the longer trips which are usually made on the
>>interstate highway system. So all we need do is put battery swapping
>>stations along the highways. You whip in, they put a fully charged
>>battery in.
>>
>>Of course...where does the electricity come from...coal? Battery
>>electric vehicles presupose that we have some clean scheme for making
>>the elect. Either renewables or nuclear.
>
>
> I saw a TV story several years ago about a guy in S. Cal that worked for GM
> designing the electronic controls for the Impact. He has a car running on
> batteries, but for longer trips, he had a small trailer with an IC powered
> generator. Sort of like a Hybrid, but with the engine only used for longer
> trips, thus there was no need to haul the extra weight of the IC engine and
> generator for most in town uses. The IC engine could run on ethanol or
> biodiesel. It might be the best of both worlds.
>
Based on the number of electric cars that are sold, one must
question whether this more complex vehicle has a large enough
market to be viable. So far, no company has attempted it, as far as
I know. Of course, Detroit and most of the industry completely
misjudged the popularity of hybrids.
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| | From: | jimp at specsol-spam-sux.com | | Subject: | Re: Automakers Put Hydrogen Power On the Fast Track | | Date: | Sun, 23 Jan 2005 23:01:08 +0000 (UTC) |
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| In sci.physics Tom Simonds wrote:
> We can already do battery cars that go 200 miles on a charge - that is
> sufficient for all but the longer trips which are usually made on the
> interstate highway system. So all we need do is put battery swapping
> stations along the highways. You whip in, they put a fully charged
> battery in.
I take it you've never actually seen how many batteries it takes to
power a car or been told what it costs to swap them out.
--
Jim Pennino
Remove -spam-sux to reply.
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