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 | | From: | stevejdufour at yahoo.com | | Subject: | Should there be more understanding between liberals and conservatives? | | Date: | 22 Jan 2005 20:58:53 -0800 |
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 | from http://www.beliefnet.com
On Belief
Steven Waldman
Perverted, God-Hating Frenchies vs. Inbred, Sex-Obsessed Yokels
Why Can't Liberals and Conservatives Get Along? Because They
Fundamentally Misunderstand Each Other
I was waiting to go on a conservative talk radio show and heard the
host say that John Kerry and his supporters "have no God" because they
don't stand up to evil. He went on to claim that "even the mention of
God terrifies them." As for religious people who go to church regularly
but vote Democratic, he said, "I see them as sort of phonies."
Then I came on, and his question to me was, "Why do secular people
think we're all a bunch of intolerant people?"
I've heard similarly clueless statements from liberals who
simultaneously talk about the need for fairness then compare the Bush
administration to the Taliban or the Nazis.
I'm not going to attempt to bring peace to the land right now but
thought it might be worthwhile to sketch the top ways that liberals
misunderstand well-meaning religious conservatives, and vice versa.
TRUTH ABOUT LIBERALS #1
They're Just As Moral As Conservatives
We've seen a wave of commentary suggesting that George W. Bush's
re-election was a victory of people who cared about morality over those
who didn't. "As a class, liberals no longer are merely the vigorous
opponents of the Right; they are spiteful enemies of civilization's
core decency and traditions," writes Mike Thompson, in Human Events
Online. Columnist Ben Giles spelled out liberal depravity with greater
specificity. "I'm sure the Kerry cabal has a lot to say
regarding...conducting an orgy, the preeminent natural herb for curbing
the side effects of herpes, how to pick out the right stripper and
midget for a m=E9nage =E0 trois, how to redistribute someone else's
wealth to pimps, whores and welfare brats, how to rid one's nation of
Judeo-Christian ethics..."
The idea that this was a victory for people who care about morality
over those who don't is galling to liberals because, for many of
them, the number one issue in this election was Iraq -- and their
opposition to the incumbent administration was almost entirely grounded
in moral concerns. It's not like liberals objected because their own
family members were dying. Rather, they believe that launching any war
unless absolutely justified is profoundly immoral, a position also
articulated by the Pope. One can disagree, but I would love the
opportunity to watch Anne Coulter tell the Pope his opposition to the
war isn't based on morality. Liberals also believe that a morally
indefensible policy was sold dishonestly - a gross moral breach
compounded by another.
Conservatives ask why the opposition to Bush seems hateful. The answer:
liberals believe that what Bush did is worse than what other
presidents, Democratic or Republican, have done because it involves the
unnecessary and therefore immoral shedding of human blood.
TRUTH ABOUT CONSERVATIVES #1
They're Just As Smart As Liberals
Liberals tend to view people who take the Bible very seriously as
yokels opposed to science, knowledge and thinking. New York Times
columnist Maureen Dowd said the Bush administration is about "replacing
science with religion, and facts with faith. We're entering another
dark age, more creationist than cutting edge." Novelist Jane Smiley
declared the election a triumph for the forces of "ignorance."
Privately, liberals friends have told me that Bush voters are "morons,"
"idiots" and "peanut heads." The idea that red state voters chose Bush
because they're ignorant or uneducated is bigoted, not to mention
inaccurate. The least educated voters, people with no high school
diploma favored Kerry 50%-49%.
Conversely, most people who are highly educated are quite religious
too: 72% percent of people with post-graduate degrees believed in
miracles and 78% percent believe in the survival of the soul after
death. Liberals can't mock religious people as dumb when they
disagree with them but hail their wisdom when they're liberals like
Jimmy Carter. This intellectual snobbery is a major reason why
religious conservatives distrust liberal elites.
TRUTH ABOUT LIBERALS #2
Most Are Religious
A conventional wisdom has developed that almost all religious people
voted for Bush and most people who voted for Kerry were secular or
anti-Christian. The Republican Party sent out brochures in West
Virginia and Kentucky saying liberals wanted to ban the Bible, Dr.
James Dobson recently called a liberal senator a "Gods' people hater"
and Republican convention keynoter Zell Miller's said of columnist
Maureen Dowd, "You can see horns just sprouting up through that
Technicolor hair."
However, not only are liberals not, by and large, Satanic or
anti-Bible, they're mostly quite religious. Voters who went to church
monthly split 50%-49% for Bush and Kerry. Those who go to church
"occasionally" went for Kerry 53%-47%, while people who attend church
weekly went for Bush 58%-41%. More important, 61% of Democrats pray
daily, 59% are "certain" there's life after death, and most believe
in God. The spiritual lives of Democrats are, statistically speaking,
somewhat less based in houses of worship than those of Republicans but
they are believers nonetheless.
When Democrats hear conservatives accuse them of being anti-religion it
sounds like what they're really saying is that Democrats don't
practice the right kind of religion -- that they are, as my talk radio
friend put it, "a bunch of phonies." This is a direct attack on the
nature of liberals' relationship with God or spirituality.
TRUTH ABOUT CONSERVATIVES #2
They Don't Want a Religious Dictatorship
Liberal columnist E.R. Shipp said conservatives wanted a "Christian
Jihad." The Village Voice declared Bush had a "mandate for theocracy."
Others have compared the current administration to the Taliban. This is
profoundly insulting to most conservative Republicans in the same way
it is insulting to liberals when they are called Communists or
defenders of terrorism. Yes, religious conservatives want a greater
role in public life -- perhaps more than liberals want or the
Constitution allows -- but President Bush's faith based initiative is
highly pluralistic and he has spoken out for religious tolerance.
Equating him or his supporters with regimes that execute dissidents or
blow up buildings is heinous.
TRUTH ABOUT LIBERALS #3
They Believe History Is On the Side of Tolerance
Conservatives contend that liberals believe in moral relativism, and,
to be sure, there is a tendency for liberals to avoid accusing people
of moral wrongdoing. Conservatives say this proves liberals are immoral
or amoral. In fact, what's happened is that liberals have elevated
"tolerance" as the value that trumps many others, an essential and
ethical way of coping with life in an increasingly diverse nation. Most
liberals who support partnership rights are not themselves
homoual but believe in the right of people to determine their own
lives. Conservatives appropriately argue that it's OK to be intolerant
of some things -- even liberals wouldn't tolerate, say, murder. But
that means the debate is really over how to weigh one value (tolerance)
over another value (traditional family) -- not over whether one side
cares about values and the other doesn't.
There's something else that needs to be said. Liberals believe that
historically red state conservatives were on the wrong side of the
civil rights struggle (first as conservative Democrats and then as
Republicans) and that they opposed much of the campaign for equal
rights for women that enabled Condoleezza Rice to be National Security
Advisor and Sandra Day O'Connor to be on the Supreme Court. So when
conservatives oppose rights, liberals see history repeating itself.
To grossly caricature both sides, liberals may have been wrong about
the Soviet Union but conservatives were wrong about civil rights and
women's rights. Liberals look at marriage opponents and say, to
paraphrase Reagan, there they go again.
TRUTH ABOUT CONSERVATIVES #3
The Pro-Life Position Is Born of Compassion
Liberals tend to think that right to life activists are motivated by a
desire to control women's bodies or lives, and to impose a
religious doctrine. Whether you agree with it or not, the heart of the
pro-life position is the belief that life begins at conception, and
therefore abortion is murder. Liberals who don't share that the
foundational assumption have a hard time understanding the passion of
pro-life voters. Yet they easily admire the radical abolitionists of
the 1860s -- who were as "rabid" and doctrinaire in their opposition to
slavery as pro-lifers are today. Liberals should ask themselves, if
they honestly believed that life began at conception, wouldn't they do
exactly what the pro-life forces do?
Liberals sometimes claim that the anti-abortion movement is actually a
religious movement aspiring to impose a particular theology. In fact,
the anti-abortion side has tended in recent years to make secular
arguments. They offer pictures of fetuses at different gestational
ages, not Bible verses. You can say it's ghoulish but that approach -
having values shaped by religion but making arguments in non-religious
terms - is exactly the way faith should be inserted into the public
debates.
TRUTH ABOUT LIBERALS #4
Most Support Separation of Church and State to Protect Religion
There is indeed an outspoken group of secular liberals who oppose any
manifestation of religion in the public sphere because they are
suspicious of religion in general, and their views are Constitutionally
protected. But most liberals (and many conservatives) fret about the
separation of church and state because they want to protect the free
expression of religious views. Conservatives might scoff at this as an
over-reaction, and perhaps it is, but for most liberals it's a view
born out of a love of religious freedom.
TRUTH ABOUT CONSERVATIVES #4
They Feel Under Assault
With conservatives controlling the House, Senate, White House, and
Supreme Court -- and Christians accounting for 83% of the population --
it's hard for liberals to understand how conservative Christians can
feel persecuted or under attack. But religious conservatives look at
this way: they have clear beliefs about what is right or wrong. They
think homouality is wrong, for instance. They turn on the TV and see
it treated as morally okeedoke, and there's nothing they can do about
it. They may have the numbers but they nonetheless feel powerless
against a popular culture that doesn't seem to share their values, and
in the face of aggressive judges who impose their will over the
objections of state legislatures.
TRUTH ABOUT LIBERALS #5
Family Values Are Revered
Telling someone they are against "family values" is not far from
telling them they're bad parents. Most liberal parents (like most
conservatives) spend most of their days thinking not about politics but
about how to raise good kids. It's probably not worthwhile to try to
figure out who is better at it but these statistics ought to at least
pour cold water on conservative self righteousness on this point: of
the 10 states with the highest divorce rates, ten of them voted for
Bush. Of the 10 states with the lowest divorce rates, 9 of them voted
for Kerry. And the state with the lowest divorce rate in the nation?
Massachusetts.
TRUTH ABOUT CONSERVATIVES #5
They Believe American Culture Has Become An Insult to God
Liberals look at the fervor of the anti- marriage movement and
wonder: why do they care so much? Are they just obsessed with ? What
that fails to understand is that for many religious conservatives the
stakes could not possibly be higher. They believe that in condoning
legalized abortion or unions or even out of wedlock heteroual
, America is messing with morality as outlined in the Bible and so
attacking God. As anyone who takes the Old Testament seriously knows,
the consequences of that could not be more enormous.
On both sides, discourse now moves swiftly from disagreement into
demonizing, from contrast to caricature. The worst motives are always
assumed. Both camps have polemicists who win popularity, ratings, and
book sales by devising ever more clever ways of ripping the eyelids off
their opponents. We all know the visceral satisfactions of hanging out
with our home-team blogs and watching the TV or radio stations that fit
our worldview. Our politicians and pundits happily supply us with the
voodoo dolls and the pins. But we'd be smarter not to use them.
I'm not saying the conflicting values aren't profound and
important. But I am saying that if we choose to find the legitimate
underpinnings of our ideological opponents' arguments, we can. It may
not be as much fun, but it is more patriotic.
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| | From: | BlackWater | | Subject: | Re: Should there be more understanding between liberals and conservatives? | | Date: | Sun, 23 Jan 2005 20:45:18 GMT |
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| There's plenty of understanding between 'liberals' and
'conservatives'. In America, there's really not THAT
much difference between the two. Yea, the rhetoric is
a little bit different, but once the TV cameras are
off politicians sound like politicians no matter which
party they're affiliated with.
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| | From: | newsgrub at newsfeeds.com | | Subject: | Re: Should there be more understanding between liberals and conservatives? | | Date: | Sun, 23 Jan 2005 05:27:45 +0000 |
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| >from http://www.beliefnet.com
>
>On Belief
>
>Steven Waldman
>
>
>
>
>
>Perverted, God-Hating Frenchies vs. Inbred, Sex-Obsessed Yokels
>Why Can't Liberals and Conservatives Get Along? Because They
>Fundamentally Misunderstand Each Other
>
>
>
>
>
>I was waiting to go on a conservative talk radio show and heard the
>host say that John Kerry and his supporters "have no God" because they
>don't stand up to evil. He went on to claim that "even the mention of
>God terrifies them." As for religious people who go to church regularly
>but vote Democratic, he said, "I see them as sort of phonies."
>
>Then I came on, and his question to me was, "Why do secular people
>think we're all a bunch of intolerant people?"
>
>I've heard similarly clueless statements from liberals who
>simultaneously talk about the need for fairness then compare the Bush
>administration to the Taliban or the Nazis.
>
>I'm not going to attempt to bring peace to the land right now but
>thought it might be worthwhile to sketch the top ways that liberals
>misunderstand well-meaning religious conservatives, and vice versa.
>
>TRUTH ABOUT LIBERALS #1
>They're Just As Moral As Conservatives
>
>We've seen a wave of commentary suggesting that George W. Bush's
>re-election was a victory of people who cared about morality over those
>who didn't. "As a class, liberals no longer are merely the vigorous
>opponents of the Right; they are spiteful enemies of civilization's
>core decency and traditions," writes Mike Thompson, in Human Events
>Online. Columnist Ben Giles spelled out liberal depravity with greater
>specificity. "I'm sure the Kerry cabal has a lot to say
>regarding...conducting an orgy, the preeminent natural herb for curbing
>the side effects of herpes, how to pick out the right stripper and
>midget for a ménage à trois, how to redistribute someone else's
>wealth to pimps, whores and welfare brats, how to rid one's nation of
>Judeo-Christian ethics..."
>
>The idea that this was a victory for people who care about morality
>over those who don't is galling to liberals because, for many of
>them, the number one issue in this election was Iraq -- and their
>opposition to the incumbent administration was almost entirely grounded
>in moral concerns. It's not like liberals objected because their own
>family members were dying. Rather, they believe that launching any war
>unless absolutely justified is profoundly immoral, a position also
>articulated by the Pope. One can disagree, but I would love the
>opportunity to watch Anne Coulter tell the Pope his opposition to the
>war isn't based on morality. Liberals also believe that a morally
>indefensible policy was sold dishonestly - a gross moral breach
>compounded by another.
>
>Conservatives ask why the opposition to Bush seems hateful. The answer:
>liberals believe that what Bush did is worse than what other
>presidents, Democratic or Republican, have done because it involves the
>unnecessary and therefore immoral shedding of human blood.
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"......unnecessary and therefore immoral shedding of human blood......"
Some wars can NOT be avoided.
In those type of situations you have no choice but to fight.
This was a war that could have been avoided.
If not avoided --- It could have been delayed.
But GWB led a political stampede into Iraq.
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
If he had acted like a Commander-in-Chief in history, leading his troops into battle,
I would have some respect for him.
If he had been standing in the turret of the first tank to cross the Iraq border,
he would be seen in a totally different light today.
This is a man who sends other men to die in battle.
This is a man who is free with the blood of others.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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| | From: | George | | Subject: | Re: Should there be more understanding between liberals and conservatives? | | Date: | Sun, 23 Jan 2005 12:58:27 -0600 |
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wrote in message
news:mac6v05u075tpvbl4i2gram39ubjk59iup@4ax.com...
> >from http://www.beliefnet.com
> >
> >On Belief
> >
[snip]>
>
> If he had acted like a Commander-in-Chief in history, leading his troops
into battle,
> I would have some respect for him.
Uncle Dave says: "The only way to talk to liberals is with a 2x4, hunting
dog, and a shotgun."
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| | From: | stevejdufour at yahoo.com | | Subject: | Re: Should there be more understanding between liberals and conservatives? | | Date: | 23 Jan 2005 08:24:20 -0800 |
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newsgrub@newsfeeds.com wrote:
> >from http://www.beliefnet.com
> >
> >On Belief
> >
> >Steven Waldman
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Perverted, God-Hating Frenchies vs. Inbred, Sex-Obsessed Yokels
> >Why Can't Liberals and Conservatives Get Along? Because They
> >Fundamentally Misunderstand Each Other
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >I was waiting to go on a conservative talk radio show and heard the
> >host say that John Kerry and his supporters "have no God" because
they
> >don't stand up to evil. He went on to claim that "even the mention
of
> >God terrifies them." As for religious people who go to church
regularly
> >but vote Democratic, he said, "I see them as sort of phonies."
> >
> >Then I came on, and his question to me was, "Why do secular people
> >think we're all a bunch of intolerant people?"
> >
> >I've heard similarly clueless statements from liberals who
> >simultaneously talk about the need for fairness then compare the
Bush
> >administration to the Taliban or the Nazis.
> >
> >I'm not going to attempt to bring peace to the land right now but
> >thought it might be worthwhile to sketch the top ways that liberals
> >misunderstand well-meaning religious conservatives, and vice versa.
> >
> >TRUTH ABOUT LIBERALS #1
> >They're Just As Moral As Conservatives
> >
> >We've seen a wave of commentary suggesting that George W. Bush's
> >re-election was a victory of people who cared about morality over
those
> >who didn't. "As a class, liberals no longer are merely the vigorous
> >opponents of the Right; they are spiteful enemies of civilization's
> >core decency and traditions," writes Mike Thompson, in Human Events
> >Online. Columnist Ben Giles spelled out liberal depravity with
greater
> >specificity. "I'm sure the Kerry cabal has a lot to say
> >regarding...conducting an orgy, the preeminent natural herb for
curbing
> >the side effects of herpes, how to pick out the right stripper and
> >midget for a m=E9nage =E0 trois, how to redistribute someone else's
> >wealth to pimps, whores and welfare brats, how to rid one's nation
of
> >Judeo-Christian ethics..."
> >
> >The idea that this was a victory for people who care about morality
> >over those who don't is galling to liberals because, for many of
> >them, the number one issue in this election was Iraq -- and their
> >opposition to the incumbent administration was almost entirely
grounded
> >in moral concerns. It's not like liberals objected because their own
> >family members were dying. Rather, they believe that launching any
war
> >unless absolutely justified is profoundly immoral, a position also
> >articulated by the Pope. One can disagree, but I would love the
> >opportunity to watch Anne Coulter tell the Pope his opposition to
the
> >war isn't based on morality. Liberals also believe that a morally
> >indefensible policy was sold dishonestly - a gross moral breach
> >compounded by another.
> >
> >Conservatives ask why the opposition to Bush seems hateful. The
answer:
> >liberals believe that what Bush did is worse than what other
> >presidents, Democratic or Republican, have done because it involves
the
> >unnecessary and therefore immoral shedding of human blood.
> >
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> "......unnecessary and therefore immoral shedding of human
blood......"
>
>
>
> Some wars can NOT be avoided.
> In those type of situations you have no choice but to fight.
>
> This was a war that could have been avoided.
> If not avoided --- It could have been delayed.
>
>
> But GWB led a political stampede into Iraq.
> |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
>
>
> If he had acted like a Commander-in-Chief in history, leading his
troops into battle,
> I would have some respect for him.
>
> If he had been standing in the turret of the first tank to cross the
Iraq border,
> he would be seen in a totally different light today.
>
> This is a man who sends other men to die in battle.
> This is a man who is free with the blood of others.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'll take that as a "no". :-)
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| | From: | stevejdufour at yahoo.com | | Subject: | Re: Should there be more understanding between liberals and conservatives? | | Date: | 23 Jan 2005 21:23:11 -0800 |
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BlackWater wrote:
> There's plenty of understanding between 'liberals' and
> 'conservatives'. In America, there's really not THAT
> much difference between the two. Yea, the rhetoric is
> a little bit different, but once the TV cameras are
> off politicians sound like politicians no matter which
> party they're affiliated with.
Good point. That is one reason our country has been so successful.
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| | From: | George | | Subject: | Re: Should there be more understanding between liberals and conservatives? | | Date: | Sun, 23 Jan 2005 12:57:49 -0600 |
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Uncle Dave says: "The only way to talk to liberals is with a 2x4, hunting
dog, and a shotgun."
wrote in message
news:1106456333.520604.279770@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
from http://www.beliefnet.com
On Belief
Steven Waldman
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