 | | From: | Judith Umbria | | Subject: | The savor of flavour | | Date: | Thu, 20 Jan 2005 08:56:25 GMT |
|
|
 | I recently read something about this. The book said that at one time words
like flavor and honor and savor were pronounced save-aowr. Over time the
pronunciation changed. For many words the spelling changed as well, during
the time when standardized spelling was being born. No one can explain why
those particular words did not change spelling in the UK. They did in the
US, they just did.
The same book said that bury is pronounced berry universally. Wrong. I say
bury and always have. I don't remember if my family did or not.
|
|
| | From: | Dave Fawthrop | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Thu, 20 Jan 2005 09:51:00 +0000 |
|
|
| On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 08:56:25 GMT, "Judith Umbria"
wrote:
| I recently read something about this. The book said that at one time words
| like flavor and honor and savor were pronounced save-aowr. Over time the
| pronunciation changed. For many words the spelling changed as well, during
| the time when standardized spelling was being born. No one can explain why
| those particular words did not change spelling in the UK. They did in the
| US, they just did.
| The same book said that bury is pronounced berry universally. Wrong. I say
| bury and always have. I don't remember if my family did or not.
|
Blame it on Noah Webster
http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/people/A0851735.html
Google has lots more pointers
--
Dave F
|
|
| | From: | Oxymel of Squill | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Thu, 20 Jan 2005 10:24:50 -0000 |
|
|
| not sure about this - it seems the language changes more in this country
than in the countries it gets exported to. Then old English words like
catsup (which we've changed into ketchup) come back to us and we think what
horrible foreign manglings they are.
I think you'd find honor and savor and so forth in 16th century English (but
I'm not putting money on this)
"Judith Umbria" wrote in message
news:ZmKHd.13$5k5.79@twister2.libero.it...
>I recently read something about this. The book said that at one time words
> like flavor and honor and savor were pronounced save-aowr. Over time the
> pronunciation changed. For many words the spelling changed as well,
> during
> the time when standardized spelling was being born. No one can explain
> why
> those particular words did not change spelling in the UK. They did in the
> US, they just did.
> The same book said that bury is pronounced berry universally. Wrong. I
> say
> bury and always have. I don't remember if my family did or not.
>
>
|
|
| | From: | Judith Umbria | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Fri, 21 Jan 2005 08:00:03 GMT |
|
|
|
"Oxymel of Squill" wrote in message
news:359f7hF4j5aauU1@individual.net...
> not sure about this - it seems the language changes more in this country
> than in the countries it gets exported to. Then old English words like
> catsup (which we've changed into ketchup) come back to us and we think
what
> horrible foreign manglings they are.
Except that word was Indonesian and was katjep or something similar. We are
great borrowers, and I like that.
|
|
| | From: | Waldo Centini | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | 21 Jan 2005 09:14:49 GMT |
|
|
| Judith Umbria surprised us with
>> not sure about this - it seems the language changes more in this
>> country than in the countries it gets exported to. Then old English
>> words like catsup (which we've changed into ketchup) come back to us
>> and we think what horrible foreign manglings they are.
>
> Except that word was Indonesian and was katjep or something similar. We
> are great borrowers, and I like that.
Kecap. Methinks.
--
Waldo
*** Is This A Dead Parrot I See Before Me ***
To respond through email remove removespam
|
|
| | From: | Phil C. | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Fri, 21 Jan 2005 12:53:36 +0000 |
|
|
| On 21 Jan 2005 09:14:49 GMT, Waldo Centini
wrote:
>Judith Umbria surprised us with
>
>>> not sure about this - it seems the language changes more in this
>>> country than in the countries it gets exported to. Then old English
>>> words like catsup (which we've changed into ketchup) come back to us
>>> and we think what horrible foreign manglings they are.
>>
>> Except that word was Indonesian and was katjep or something similar. We
>> are great borrowers, and I like that.
>
>Kecap. Methinks.
Both MW and COD give it as originally Chinese. COD suggests Cantonese
k'e chap ‘tomato juice’ MW suggests it was originally Chinese ke-tsiap
which has come to us via Malay.
--
Phil C.
|
|
| | From: | Adrian Tupper | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | 20 Jan 2005 20:17:17 GMT |
|
|
| "Oxymel of Squill" wrote in
news:359f7hF4j5aauU1@individual.net:
> not sure about this - it seems the language changes more in this
> country than in the countries it gets exported to. Then old English
> words like catsup (which we've changed into ketchup) come back to us
> and we think what horrible foreign manglings they are.
> I think you'd find honor and savor and so forth in 16th century
> English (but I'm not putting money on this)
The spelling often gives a clue to how words used to sound.
In the home counties, I believe the trend was to drop "r"s because
it "sounded better". Hence a "caaah" in Berkshire is a "carrr"
in Scotland. etc etc etc.
I'm sure other letters have similarly been dropped and at one
time we would have pronounced the "l" in could and the
"gh" in night (more like German "nacht").
I agree with the asumptions about honour and savour. The questions
that the USians should be asking is why they pronounce the second
of these words "ahna".
:-)
--
Adrian
|
|
| | From: | graham | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Thu, 20 Jan 2005 20:48:54 GMT |
|
|
|
"Adrian Tupper" wrote in message
news:Xns95E4CE5C9FF29z@194.247.47.119...
> "Oxymel of Squill" wrote in
> news:359f7hF4j5aauU1@individual.net:
>
>> not sure about this - it seems the language changes more in this
>> country than in the countries it gets exported to. Then old English
>> words like catsup (which we've changed into ketchup) come back to us
>> and we think what horrible foreign manglings they are.
>> I think you'd find honor and savor and so forth in 16th century
>> English (but I'm not putting money on this)
>
> The spelling often gives a clue to how words used to sound.
>
My Aunt transcribed the early parish registers in our Suffolk village. The
spellings varied widely as a succession of educated parsons spelled the
names phonetically. My Aunt, understanding the Suffolk speech and dialect,
was able to make sense of all these variations for vistors looking for info
on their ancestors.
Graham
|
|
| | From: | Gregoire Kretz | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Thu, 20 Jan 2005 23:22:18 +0000 |
|
|
| Adrian Tupper wrote:
> I agree with the asumptions about honour and savour. The questions
> that the USians should be asking is why they pronounce the second
> of these words "ahna".
> :-)
Excellent question. Specially when it should be the first. :)
Greg
--
And it's partner found and partner lost
And it's hell to pay when the fiddler stops: It's closing time
No spam: ficus = no(n)
|
|
| | From: | Adrian Tupper | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | 21 Jan 2005 21:53:43 GMT |
|
|
| gktz@ficusheian.org.uk (Gregoire Kretz) wrote in
news:1gqpnj7.vnz4px13a5g15N%gktz@ficusheian.org.uk:
> Adrian Tupper wrote:
>
>> I agree with the asumptions about honour and savour. The questions
>> that the USians should be asking is why they pronounce the second
>> of these words "ahna".
>> :-)
>
> Excellent question. Specially when it should be the first. :)
Well spahdded!
--
Adrian
|
|
| | From: | Judith Umbria | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Sat, 22 Jan 2005 09:31:23 GMT |
|
|
|
"Adrian Tupper" wrote in message
news:Xns95E5DEBA85CCCz@194.247.47.119...
> gktz@ficusheian.org.uk (Gregoire Kretz) wrote in
> >> I agree with the asumptions about honour and savour. The questions
> >> that the USians should be asking is why they pronounce the second
> >> of these words "ahna".
> >> :-)
> >
> > Excellent question. Specially when it should be the first. :)
>
> Well spahdded!
>
> --
> Adrian
Who the heck do you people know? Exclusively people from the middle west or
the south?
While it would be extremely strange were I to say those words exactly as you
do, I have never said them the way you interpolate them, either.
You need to get out more. Go to Cincinatti. Go to New Hampshire.
|
|
| | From: | Adrian Tupper | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | 22 Jan 2005 23:03:12 GMT |
|
|
| "Judith Umbria" wrote in
news:L3pId.3647$5k5.74530@twister2.libero.it:
>
> "Adrian Tupper" wrote in message
> news:Xns95E5DEBA85CCCz@194.247.47.119...
>> gktz@ficusheian.org.uk (Gregoire Kretz) wrote in
>> >> I agree with the asumptions about honour and savour. The
>> >> questions that the USians should be asking is why they pronounce
>> >> the second of these words "ahna".
>> >> :-)
>> >
>> > Excellent question. Specially when it should be the first. :)
>>
>> Well spahdded!
>>
>> --
>> Adrian
>
> Who the heck do you people know? Exclusively people from the middle
> west or the south?
> While it would be extremely strange were I to say those words exactly
> as you do, I have never said them the way you interpolate them,
> either. You need to get out more. Go to Cincinatti. Go to New
> Hampshire.
>
>
>
Well I'm not sure I'd be able to tell the difference any more than
an average USian can't tell a Brit from an Aussie. The point, made
I think by Phil, is that neither set of pronounciations bears much
resemblance to the spelling of the word.
Do you disagree that USians pronounce ts as ds (esp in the middle of a
word)?
--
Adrian
|
|
| | From: | Judith Umbria | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Sun, 23 Jan 2005 08:55:13 GMT |
|
|
|
"Adrian Tupper" wrote in message
news:Xns95E6EA812FC48z@194.247.47.119...
> "Judith Umbria" wrote in
> news:L3pId.3647$5k5.74530@twister2.libero.it:
>
> >
> > "Adrian Tupper" wrote in message
> > news:Xns95E5DEBA85CCCz@194.247.47.119...
> >> gktz@ficusheian.org.uk (Gregoire Kretz) wrote in
> Do you disagree that USians pronounce ts as ds (esp in the middle of a
> word)?
>
> --
> Adrian
Can't think of a word spelled so. Give me a clue?
|
|
| | From: | Adrian Tupper | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | 23 Jan 2005 18:24:25 GMT |
|
|
| "Judith Umbria" wrote in news:RDJId.4839$5k5.111706
@twister2.libero.it:
>
> "Adrian Tupper" wrote in message
> news:Xns95E6EA812FC48z@194.247.47.119...
>> "Judith Umbria" wrote in
>> news:L3pId.3647$5k5.74530@twister2.libero.it:
>>
>> >
>> > "Adrian Tupper" wrote in message
>> > news:Xns95E5DEBA85CCCz@194.247.47.119...
>> >> gktz@ficusheian.org.uk (Gregoire Kretz) wrote in
>
>> Do you disagree that USians pronounce ts as ds (esp in the middle of
a
>> word)?
>>
>> --
>> Adrian
>
> Can't think of a word spelled so. Give me a clue?
Anything with ts in the middle (that's the plutal of t).
e.g. Connecticut = Conneddicut. No?
(and I know the c goes too, but that's OK).
--
Adrian
|
|
| | From: | Waldo Centini | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | 23 Jan 2005 20:25:23 GMT |
|
|
| Adrian Tupper surprised us with
> e.g. Connecticut = Conneddicut. No?
>
No. Konneddikut.
--
Waldo
*** Is This A Dead Parrot I See Before Me ***
To respond through email remove removespam
|
|
| | From: | Adrian Tupper | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | 23 Jan 2005 21:09:31 GMT |
|
|
| Waldo Centini wrote in
news:Xns95E7D9EF84D62Waldo@130.133.1.4:
> Adrian Tupper surprised us with
>
>> e.g. Connecticut = Conneddicut. No?
>>
>
> No. Konneddikut.
>
Klearly I missed the thread where this K thing started.
Kan you enlighten me?
--
Adrian
|
|
| | From: | Waldo Centini | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | 24 Jan 2005 07:43:18 GMT |
|
|
| Adrian Tupper surprised us with
>>> e.g. Connecticut = Conneddicut. No?
>>>
>>
>> No. Konneddikut.
>>
>
> Klearly I missed the thread where this K thing started.
> Kan you enlighten me?
>
It all started, a long, long time ago, in a thread far, far away. It was
called "Healthy & Delicious", and if memory serves, someone wanted to mix
onions, garlik and Krispy Kreme.
From there a linguistic subthread grew about the use of the letter "K"
instead of "C" By our transatlantic kousins adn kousines. (What? You mean
pronounce color as kolor? What a silly bunt!)
--
Waldo
*** Is This A Dead Parrot I See Before Me ***
To respond through email remove removespam
|
|
| | From: | Arri London | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Sun, 23 Jan 2005 17:47:24 -0700 |
|
|
|
Adrian Tupper wrote:
>
> "Judith Umbria" wrote in news:RDJId.4839$5k5.111706
> @twister2.libero.it:
>
> >
> > "Adrian Tupper" wrote in message
> > news:Xns95E6EA812FC48z@194.247.47.119...
> >> "Judith Umbria" wrote in
> >> news:L3pId.3647$5k5.74530@twister2.libero.it:
> >>
> >> >
> >> > "Adrian Tupper" wrote in message
> >> > news:Xns95E5DEBA85CCCz@194.247.47.119...
> >> >> gktz@ficusheian.org.uk (Gregoire Kretz) wrote in
> >
> >> Do you disagree that USians pronounce ts as ds (esp in the middle of
> a
> >> word)?
> >>
> >> --
> >> Adrian
> >
> > Can't think of a word spelled so. Give me a clue?
>
> Anything with ts in the middle (that's the plutal of t).
> e.g. Connecticut = Conneddicut. No?
>
> (and I know the c goes too, but that's OK).
> --
> Adrian
You are right.
|
|
| | From: | Arri London | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Sun, 23 Jan 2005 17:42:36 -0700 |
|
|
|
Judith Umbria wrote:
>
> "Adrian Tupper" wrote in message
> news:Xns95E6EA812FC48z@194.247.47.119...
> > "Judith Umbria" wrote in
> > news:L3pId.3647$5k5.74530@twister2.libero.it:
> >
> > >
> > > "Adrian Tupper" wrote in message
> > > news:Xns95E5DEBA85CCCz@194.247.47.119...
> > >> gktz@ficusheian.org.uk (Gregoire Kretz) wrote in
>
> > Do you disagree that USians pronounce ts as ds (esp in the middle of a
> > word)?
> >
> > --
> > Adrian
>
> Can't think of a word spelled so. Give me a clue?
"Butter" ends up sounding like 'budder'.
"Printer" ends up sounding like 'prinder'.
Even the final t in many words sounds like a d in American.
|
|
| | From: | Waldo Centini | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | 24 Jan 2005 07:44:08 GMT |
|
|
| Arri London surprised us with
> "Printer" ends up sounding like 'prinder'.
>
I thought sometimes even "prinner".
--
Waldo
*** Is This A Dead Parrot I See Before Me ***
To respond through email remove removespam
|
|
| | From: | Phil C. | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Fri, 21 Jan 2005 12:53:34 +0000 |
|
|
| On 20 Jan 2005 20:17:17 GMT, Adrian Tupper
wrote:
>"Oxymel of Squill" wrote in
>news:359f7hF4j5aauU1@individual.net:
>
>> not sure about this - it seems the language changes more in this
>> country than in the countries it gets exported to. Then old English
>> words like catsup (which we've changed into ketchup) come back to us
>> and we think what horrible foreign manglings they are.
>> I think you'd find honor and savor and so forth in 16th century
>> English (but I'm not putting money on this)
>
>The spelling often gives a clue to how words used to sound.
>
>In the home counties, I believe the trend was to drop "r"s because
>it "sounded better". Hence a "caaah" in Berkshire is a "carrr"
>in Scotland. etc etc etc.
I think the rhotic and non-rhotic accents are much older than any
sense of how words "should" sound. Eastern England tends to be
non-rhotic and had a disproportionate influence on the development of
"Standard" English (or whatever we want to call it). Non-rhotic
pronunciations no doubt spread in Berkshire etc, though, as they
became viewed as "correct" English.
>I'm sure other letters have similarly been dropped and at one
>time we would have pronounced the "l" in could and the
>"gh" in night (more like German "nacht").
Yes - most English speakers have lost that Anglo-Saxon guttural sound.
Hence the variety of pronunciations of "gh" words.
Mrs C's surname was once Knight and she got bored with people asking
whether it was spelled with a "K". How many people are there called
"Night" (well, apart from that Asian film director chappie)?
>I agree with the asumptions about honour and savour. The questions
>that the USians should be asking is why they pronounce the second
>of these words "ahna".
>:-)
In general, discussions of whether British or American spellings are
more rational are a bit like discussing whether to have pork or beef
as the vegetarian option.
--
Phil C.
|
|
| | From: | Adrian Tupper | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | 21 Jan 2005 21:55:55 GMT |
|
|
| Phil C. wrote in
news:qnu1v0l0pkhmbeog14e1danqs7q7sc0nej@4ax.com:
> On 20 Jan 2005 20:17:17 GMT, Adrian Tupper
> wrote:
>
>>"Oxymel of Squill" wrote in
>>news:359f7hF4j5aauU1@individual.net:
>>
>>> not sure about this - it seems the language changes more in this
>>> country than in the countries it gets exported to. Then old English
>>> words like catsup (which we've changed into ketchup) come back to us
>>> and we think what horrible foreign manglings they are.
>>> I think you'd find honor and savor and so forth in 16th century
>>> English (but I'm not putting money on this)
>>
>>The spelling often gives a clue to how words used to sound.
>>
>>In the home counties, I believe the trend was to drop "r"s because
>>it "sounded better". Hence a "caaah" in Berkshire is a "carrr"
>>in Scotland. etc etc etc.
>
> I think the rhotic and non-rhotic accents are much older than any
> sense of how words "should" sound. Eastern England tends to be
> non-rhotic and had a disproportionate influence on the development of
> "Standard" English (or whatever we want to call it). Non-rhotic
> pronunciations no doubt spread in Berkshire etc, though, as they
> became viewed as "correct" English.
>
>>I'm sure other letters have similarly been dropped and at one
>>time we would have pronounced the "l" in could and the
>>"gh" in night (more like German "nacht").
>
> Yes - most English speakers have lost that Anglo-Saxon guttural sound.
> Hence the variety of pronunciations of "gh" words.
>
> Mrs C's surname was once Knight and she got bored with people asking
> whether it was spelled with a "K". How many people are there called
> "Night" (well, apart from that Asian film director chappie)?
>
>>I agree with the asumptions about honour and savour. The questions
>>that the USians should be asking is why they pronounce the second
>>of these words "ahna".
>>:-)
>
> In general, discussions of whether British or American spellings are
> more rational are a bit like discussing whether to have pork or beef
> as the vegetarian option.
Indeed. I just object when someone tells me that the US is more
advanced in these matters because they miss out "u"s and reverse
"re"s.
--
Adrian
|
|
| | From: | Judith Umbria | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Sat, 22 Jan 2005 09:31:21 GMT |
|
|
|
"Adrian Tupper" wrote in message
news:Xns95E5DF1A54DBCz@194.247.47.119...
> Indeed. I just object when someone tells me that the US is more
> advanced in these matters because they miss out "u"s and reverse
> "re"s.
>
> --
> Adrian
I shan't say it then, but the 're' thing is the rejection of the
Frenchifying of English, so it would have been more likely coming from you,
since you were fighting them all the time we were just changing the
spelling.
The latest discussions have made me appreciate even more living in a place
where I don't speak our mother tongue from one week to the next at times.
Whenever there is a question about it here, I am always right!
What is amazing to me is that most Italians, with rare overeducated
exceptions, cannot tell if one is British or American or Canadian from
speech. I can pick out a foreigner speaking Italian almost always, although
there is one area where they say the 'R' just like the French do. But then,
that was an area conquered by the French for a century or two.
|
|
| | From: | Adrian Tupper | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | 22 Jan 2005 23:05:30 GMT |
|
|
| "Judith Umbria" wrote in
news:J3pId.3646$5k5.74589@twister2.libero.it:
>
> "Adrian Tupper" wrote in message
> news:Xns95E5DF1A54DBCz@194.247.47.119...
>> Indeed. I just object when someone tells me that the US is more
>> advanced in these matters because they miss out "u"s and reverse
>> "re"s.
>>
>> --
>> Adrian
>
> I shan't say it then, but the 're' thing is the rejection of the
> Frenchifying of English, so it would have been more likely coming from
> you, since you were fighting them all the time we were just changing
> the spelling.
> The latest discussions have made me appreciate even more living in a
> place where I don't speak our mother tongue from one week to the next
> at times. Whenever there is a question about it here, I am always
> right! What is amazing to me is that most Italians, with rare
> overeducated exceptions, cannot tell if one is British or American or
> Canadian from speech. I can pick out a foreigner speaking Italian
> almost always, although there is one area where they say the 'R' just
> like the French do. But then, that was an area conquered by the
> French for a century or two.
>
>
>
I can't tell a native French speaker from a native Quebecois. Although
I can tell northern from southern French. Don't know why I'm saying
this though.
--
Adrian
|
|
| | From: | graham | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Sat, 22 Jan 2005 23:34:41 GMT |
|
|
|
"Adrian Tupper" wrote in message
news:Xns95E6EAE567A51z@194.247.47.119...
> "Judith Umbria" wrote in
> news:J3pId.3646$5k5.74589@twister2.libero.it:
>
>>
>> "Adrian Tupper" wrote in message
>> news:Xns95E5DF1A54DBCz@194.247.47.119...
>>> Indeed. I just object when someone tells me that the US is more
>>> advanced in these matters because they miss out "u"s and reverse
>>> "re"s.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Adrian
>>
>>>
> I can't tell a native French speaker from a native Quebecois. Although
> I can tell northern from southern French.
I'm surprised! If you hear a "good" Quebecois French, it is unmistakable in
the rythym and the way that many words are "clipped". One of my French
teachers at the local Alliance Française was Quebecoise. She spoke
"international" French (she had to, to teach there) but when she got a bit
excited by the discussion, she reverted to her native accent.
Graham
|
|
| | From: | Gregoire Kretz | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Sun, 23 Jan 2005 00:28:53 +0000 |
|
|
| graham wrote:
> "Adrian Tupper" wrote in message
> news:Xns95E6EAE567A51z@194.247.47.119...
>
> > I can't tell a native French speaker from a native Quebecois. Although
> > I can tell northern from southern French.
I have difficulties with English accents as well. Most of the time I can
tell there are differences but have no clue whether it's Welsh,
Australian or from Wyoming (what's the adjective for that state?).
And then I have to understand what they are actually saying - I was very
proud to say I was beginning to understand the landlady at the BB in the
Lake District last year. And of course she was Norwegian.
> I'm surprised! If you hear a "good" Quebecois French, it is unmistakable in
> the rythym and the way that many words are "clipped".
Yes, the French tend not to put intonations in their vowels (anyone seen
Eddie Izzard on the subject?) and pronounce them very flatly, a bit like
Germans. Notable differences start when you reach Provence or Québec,
interestingly.
Greg
--
And it's partner found and partner lost
And it's hell to pay when the fiddler stops: It's closing time
No spam: ficus = no(n)
|
|
| | From: | Adrian Tupper | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | 23 Jan 2005 18:22:55 GMT |
|
|
| gktz@ficusheian.org.uk (Gregoire Kretz) wrote in
news:1gqtfgd.1b8z6hb1ex2ivbN%gktz@ficusheian.org.uk:
> graham wrote:
>
>> "Adrian Tupper" wrote in message
>> news:Xns95E6EAE567A51z@194.247.47.119...
>>
>> > I can't tell a native French speaker from a native Quebecois.
>> > Although I can tell northern from southern French.
>
> I have difficulties with English accents as well. Most of the time I
> can tell there are differences but have no clue whether it's Welsh,
> Australian or from Wyoming (what's the adjective for that state?).
> And then I have to understand what they are actually saying - I was
> very proud to say I was beginning to understand the landlady at the BB
> in the Lake District last year. And of course she was Norwegian.
I understand that the Lake District dialect has some Norwegian in it.
Goes back a loooooong time.
>
>
>> I'm surprised! If you hear a "good" Quebecois French, it is
>> unmistakable in the rythym and the way that many words are "clipped".
>
> Yes, the French tend not to put intonations in their vowels (anyone
> seen Eddie Izzard on the subject?) and pronounce them very flatly, a
> bit like Germans. Notable differences start when you reach Provence or
> Québec, interestingly.
The extremities? I'll listen harder...
--
Adrian
|
|
| | From: | Phil C. | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Sat, 22 Jan 2005 12:20:32 +0000 |
|
|
| On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 09:31:21 GMT, "Judith Umbria"
wrote:
>
>"Adrian Tupper" wrote in message
>news:Xns95E5DF1A54DBCz@194.247.47.119...
>> Indeed. I just object when someone tells me that the US is more
>> advanced in these matters because they miss out "u"s and reverse
>> "re"s.
>>
>> --
>> Adrian
>
>I shan't say it then, but the 're' thing is the rejection of the
>Frenchifying of English, so it would have been more likely coming from you,
>since you were fighting them all the time we were just changing the
>spelling.
Our nobility were Norman French and French had a huge impact on the
dvelopment of English vocabulary. There has been a regard for anything
French (or seeming French) ever since. This was no doubt enhanced
later (C19th) by France having a reputation for sophistication in
areas where Britain didn't shine - cuisine, wine, fashion, art etc.
Dropping bits of French into English conversation is still seen as
sophisticated/pretentious (delete as appropriate).
We weren't always fighting. We were on the same side in the Crimea and
the C20th unpleasantnesses. I recall, though, that one of the British
generals in the Crimea kept referring to the Russian enemy as "The
French" out of sheer force of habit.
--
Phil C.
|
|
| | From: | Delurker | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Thu, 20 Jan 2005 09:35:26 +0000 |
|
|
| Judith Umbria wrote:
> I recently read something about this. The book said that at one time words
> like flavor and honor and savor were pronounced save-aowr. Over time the
> pronunciation changed. For many words the spelling changed as well, during
> the time when standardized spelling was being born. No one can explain why
> those particular words did not change spelling in the UK. They did in the
> US, they just did.
> The same book said that bury is pronounced berry universally. Wrong. I say
> bury and always have. I don't remember if my family did or not.
Bury as in BSE and Bury, Lancs I've always pronounced "berry" and so do
most people I know. But bury as in to bury something/someone (inter) I
pronounce as "bury".
Maybe I'm just weird
|
|
| | From: | Dave Fawthrop | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Thu, 20 Jan 2005 09:56:41 +0000 |
|
|
| On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 09:35:26 +0000, Delurker wrote:
| Judith Umbria wrote:
|
| > I recently read something about this. The book said that at one time words
| > like flavor and honor and savor were pronounced save-aowr. Over time the
| > pronunciation changed. For many words the spelling changed as well, during
| > the time when standardized spelling was being born. No one can explain why
| > those particular words did not change spelling in the UK. They did in the
| > US, they just did.
| > The same book said that bury is pronounced berry universally. Wrong. I say
| > bury and always have. I don't remember if my family did or not.
|
| Bury as in BSE and Bury, Lancs I've always pronounced "berry" and so do
| most people I know. But bury as in to bury something/someone (inter) I
| pronounce as "bury".
The English language has roots in many other languages, Latin, Norman
French, Anglo Saxon, The language of the Vikings, not forgetting Hindi,
Arabic and various Chinese languages. Pronunciation often follows the
language which had the dominant influence in that area ?Viking in
Lancashire?. You can even hear the different pronunciations on the Beeb
nowadays.
--
Dave F
|
|
| | From: | Waldo Centini | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | 20 Jan 2005 09:53:26 GMT |
|
|
| Delurker surprised us with
>> The same book said that bury is pronounced berry universally. Wrong.
>> I say bury and always have. I don't remember if my family did or not.
>
> Bury as in BSE and Bury, Lancs I've always pronounced "berry" and so do
> most people I know. But bury as in to bury something/someone (inter) I
> pronounce as "bury".
>
To be on the safe side I want to be cremated. That is, after my death, of
course.
I hope I won't die while in America, because there I would then prolly be
Kreme-aited.....
--
Waldo
*** Is This A Dead Parrot I See Before Me ***
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|
|
| | From: | Owain | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Thu, 20 Jan 2005 13:15:57 -0000 |
|
|
| "Waldo Centini" wrote
| I hope I won't die while in America, because there I would then
| prolly be Kreme-aited.....
Kryogeniks is catching on too though.
Owain
|
|
| | From: | Ophelia | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Thu, 20 Jan 2005 21:24:23 GMT |
|
|
|
"Owain" wrote in message
news:1106230219.4508.2@echo.uk.clara.net...
> "Waldo Centini" wrote
> | I hope I won't die while in America, because there I would then
> | prolly be Kreme-aited.....
>
> Kryogeniks is catching on too though.
Nahh you get frozen out
|
|
| | From: | Waldo Centini | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | 20 Jan 2005 21:15:04 GMT |
|
|
| Owain surprised us with
> "Waldo Centini" wrote
>| I hope I won't die while in America, because there I would then
>| prolly be Kreme-aited.....
>
> Kryogeniks is catching on too though.
Not for me. Too kold.
--
Waldo
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|
|
| | From: | Gregoire Kretz | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Thu, 20 Jan 2005 23:22:18 +0000 |
|
|
| Waldo Centini wrote:
> Owain surprised us with
>
> > "Waldo Centini" wrote
> >| I hope I won't die while in America, because there I would then
> >| prolly be Kreme-aited.....
> >
> > Kryogeniks is catching on too though.
>
> Not for me. Too kold.
Kould be kool, though.
Greg
--
And it's partner found and partner lost
And it's hell to pay when the fiddler stops: It's closing time
No spam: ficus = no(n)
|
|
| | From: | Owain | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Fri, 21 Jan 2005 08:53:23 -0000 |
|
|
| "Gregoire Kretz" wrote
| > >| I hope I won't die while in America, because there I would then
| > >| prolly be Kreme-aited.....
| > > Kryogeniks is catching on too though.
| > Not for me. Too kold.
| Kould be kool, though.
Does anyone think Cansas was originally spelt thusly?
Owain
|
|
| | From: | S Viemeister | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Fri, 21 Jan 2005 08:55:26 -0500 |
|
|
| Owain wrote:
>
> "Gregoire Kretz" wrote
> | > >| I hope I won't die while in America, because there I would then
> | > >| prolly be Kreme-aited.....
> | > > Kryogeniks is catching on too though.
> | > Not for me. Too kold.
> | Kould be kool, though.
>
> Does anyone think Cansas was originally spelt thusly?
>
Nope - Kanzas.
Sheila
|
|
| | From: | Phil C. | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Fri, 21 Jan 2005 14:44:13 +0000 |
|
|
| On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 08:55:26 -0500, S Viemeister
wrote:
>Owain wrote:
>>
>> "Gregoire Kretz" wrote
>> | > >| I hope I won't die while in America, because there I would then
>> | > >| prolly be Kreme-aited.....
>> | > > Kryogeniks is catching on too though.
>> | > Not for me. Too kold.
>> | Kould be kool, though.
>>
>> Does anyone think Cansas was originally spelt thusly?
>>
>Nope - Kanzas.
I thought it was originally Cans R Us.
--
Phil C.
|
|
| | From: | Waldo Centini | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | 21 Jan 2005 10:05:22 GMT |
|
|
| Owain surprised us with
> "Gregoire Kretz" wrote
>| > >| I hope I won't die while in America, because there I would then
>| > >| prolly be Kreme-aited.....
>| > > Kryogeniks is catching on too though.
>| > Not for me. Too kold.
>| Kould be kool, though.
>
> Does anyone think Cansas was originally spelt thusly?
I'm certain it was. Or Kinkinnati.
--
Waldo
*** Is This A Dead Parrot I See Before Me ***
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|
|
| | From: | Owain | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Fri, 21 Jan 2005 20:34:00 -0000 |
|
|
| "Waldo Centini" wrote
| > Does anyone think Cansas was originally spelt thusly?
| I'm certain it was. Or Kinkinnati.
Ah, kinki natti - the brand every smartly-dressed pervert is wearing
Owain
|
|
| | From: | Delurker | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Thu, 20 Jan 2005 10:48:01 +0000 |
|
|
| Waldo Centini wrote:
> Delurker surprised us with
>
>
>>>The same book said that bury is pronounced berry universally. Wrong.
>>>I say bury and always have. I don't remember if my family did or not.
>>
>>Bury as in BSE and Bury, Lancs I've always pronounced "berry" and so do
>>most people I know. But bury as in to bury something/someone (inter) I
>>pronounce as "bury".
>>
>
>
> To be on the safe side I want to be cremated. That is, after my death, of
> course.
>
> I hope I won't die while in America, because there I would then prolly be
> Kreme-aited.....
>
LOL!
|
|
| | From: | Richard Dixon | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | 20 Jan 2005 11:34:02 GMT |
|
|
| Delurker wrote in news:cso25r$443$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk:
>> I hope I won't die while in America, because there I would then
>> prolly be Kreme-aited.....
>>
>
>
> LOL!
>
Krispy Kreme-aited?!
Richard
|
|
| | From: | Waldo Centini | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | 20 Jan 2005 11:55:40 GMT |
|
|
| Richard Dixon surprised us with
> Delurker wrote in news:cso25r$443$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk:
>
>>> I hope I won't die while in America, because there I would then
>>> prolly be Kreme-aited.....
>>>
>>
>>
>> LOL!
>>
>
> Krispy Kreme-aited?!
>
> Richard
>
Well, certainly krispy *after* the kreme-aiting....
--
Waldo
*** Is This A Dead Parrot I See Before Me ***
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|
|
| | From: | Gregoire Kretz | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Thu, 20 Jan 2005 11:24:51 +0000 |
|
|
| Waldo Centini wrote:
> I hope I won't die while in America, because there I would then prolly be
> Kreme-aited.....
And then chocolate-glazed and served hot to customers.
Greg
--
And it's partner found and partner lost
And it's hell to pay when the fiddler stops: It's closing time
No spam: ficus = no(n)
|
|
| | From: | Phil C. | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Thu, 20 Jan 2005 12:33:43 +0000 |
|
|
| On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 11:24:51 +0000, gktz@ficusheian.org.uk (Gregoire
Kretz) wrote:
>Waldo Centini wrote:
>
>> I hope I won't die while in America, because there I would then prolly be
>> Kreme-aited.....
>
>And then chocolate-glazed and served hot to customers.
Khokolate-glazed and served hot to kustomers, surely?
--
Phil C.
|
|
| | From: | Waldo Centini | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | 20 Jan 2005 13:34:32 GMT |
|
|
| Phil C. surprised us with
>>And then chocolate-glazed and served hot to customers.
>
> Khokolate-glazed and served hot to kustomers, surely?
>
Who, for the first time in their pitiful Merkin lives, wil eat a healthy and
nutritious meal....
--
Waldo
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|
|
| | From: | Krysia Thompson | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Thu, 20 Jan 2005 14:03:12 +0000 |
|
|
| On 20 Jan 2005 13:34:32 GMT, Waldo Centini
wrote:
>Phil C. surprised us with
>
>>>And then chocolate-glazed and served hot to customers.
>>
>> Khokolate-glazed and served hot to kustomers, surely?
>>
>
>Who, for the first time in their pitiful Merkin lives, wil eat a healthy and
>nutritious meal....
do you know what a "merkin" really is??
krysia
K.T. - starannie opakowana
|
|
| | From: | Waldo Centini | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | 20 Jan 2005 15:14:37 GMT |
|
|
| Krysia Thompson surprised us with
>>Who, for the first time in their pitiful Merkin lives, wil eat a healthy
>>and nutritious meal....
>
>
> do you know what a "merkin" really is??
You mean that apart from the usenet-jargon for an onomatopoeic
representation of the way an American might describe him or herself this
word has another meaning?
And is that meaning similarly derogative?
Because I think it should be!
Next thing you're going to tell me it's a womens wig worn in the pubic
region! Which I think is indeed a clever way of making an American useful!
--
Waldo
*** Is This A Dead Parrot I See Before Me ***
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|
|
| | From: | Krysia Thompson | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Thu, 20 Jan 2005 15:55:22 +0000 |
|
|
| On 20 Jan 2005 15:14:37 GMT, Waldo Centini
wrote:
>Krysia Thompson surprised us with
>
>>>Who, for the first time in their pitiful Merkin lives, wil eat a healthy
>>>and nutritious meal....
>>
>>
>> do you know what a "merkin" really is??
>
>
>You mean that apart from the usenet-jargon for an onomatopoeic
>representation of the way an American might describe him or herself this
>word has another meaning?
>
>And is that meaning similarly derogative?
>
>Because I think it should be!
>
>Next thing you're going to tell me it's a womens wig worn in the pubic
>region! Which I think is indeed a clever way of making an American useful!
Of course it a pubic wig. ask any theatrical person :PPPP
didn't know it was STRICTLY women's thing....hhhmmmmmmmmm
as for the usefulness of Americans....weeeellll...some are, just
like with anyone else anywhere else
Krysia
K.T. - starannie opakowana
|
|
| | From: | graham | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Thu, 20 Jan 2005 20:50:45 GMT |
|
|
|
"Krysia Thompson" wrote in message
news:c0lvu0dfi36g89ubq5rfo7b8jf0cev8t5a@4ax.com...
> On 20 Jan 2005 15:14:37 GMT, Waldo Centini
> wrote:
>
>>Krysia Thompson surprised us with
>>
>>>>Who, for the first time in their pitiful Merkin lives, wil eat a healthy
>>>>and nutritious meal....
>>>
>>>
>>> do you know what a "merkin" really is??
>>
>>
>>You mean that apart from the usenet-jargon for an onomatopoeic
>>representation of the way an American might describe him or herself this
>>word has another meaning?
>>
>>And is that meaning similarly derogative?
>>
>>Because I think it should be!
>>
>>Next thing you're going to tell me it's a womens wig worn in the pubic
>>region! Which I think is indeed a clever way of making an American useful!
>
>
> Of course it a pubic wig. ask any theatrical person :PPPP
> didn't know it was STRICTLY women's thing....hhhmmmmmmmmm
>
> as for the usefulness of Americans....weeeellll...some are, just
> like with anyone else anywhere else
>
Perhaps we should use "hern-herns" instead. So much better than "septics".
Graham
|
|
| | From: | Waldo Centini | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | 20 Jan 2005 16:15:35 GMT |
|
|
| Krysia Thompson surprised us with
>>Next thing you're going to tell me it's a womens wig worn in the pubic
>>region! Which I think is indeed a clever way of making an American
useful!
>
>
> Of course it a pubic wig. ask any theatrical person :PPPP
> didn't know it was STRICTLY women's thing....hhhmmmmmmmmm
>
Still. It amuses me no end, when some American unwittingly pronounces
himherself on usenet to be a Merkin!
--
Waldo
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|
|
| | From: | Gregoire Kretz | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Thu, 20 Jan 2005 17:48:05 +0000 |
|
|
| Krysia Thompson wrote:
> Of course it a pubic wig. ask any theatrical person :PPPP
I can't imagine when it would need to be worn... But then again maybe
I've already seen one unknowingly.
> as for the usefulness of Americans....weeeellll...some are, just
> like with anyone else anywhere else
A country that gave us Laurie Anderson cannot be entirely crap.
Greg
--
And it's partner found and partner lost
And it's hell to pay when the fiddler stops: It's closing time
No spam: ficus = no(n)
|
|
| | From: | Waldo Centini | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | 20 Jan 2005 18:00:50 GMT |
|
|
| Gregoire Kretz surprised us with
> A country that gave us Laurie Anderson cannot be entirely crap.
>
But must at least be partially krap? As a kountry?
--
Waldo
*** Is This A Dead Parrot I See Before Me ***
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|
|
| | From: | davek | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Sat, 22 Jan 2005 22:14:36 +0000 |
|
|
| Gregoire Kretz wrote:
> A country that gave us Laurie Anderson cannot be entirely crap.
She's Canadian, isn't she?
d.
|
|
| | From: | Waldo Centini | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | 23 Jan 2005 10:37:30 GMT |
|
|
| davek surprised us with
>> A country that gave us Laurie Anderson cannot be entirely crap.
>
> She's Canadian, isn't she?
>
Like Neil Young. He's Kanadian too.
--
Waldo
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|
|
| | From: | Adrian Tupper | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | 23 Jan 2005 18:24:56 GMT |
|
|
| Waldo Centini wrote in
news:Xns95E7764422B02Waldo@130.133.1.4:
> davek surprised us with
>
>>> A country that gave us Laurie Anderson cannot be entirely crap.
>>
>> She's Canadian, isn't she?
>>
>
> Like Neil Young. He's Kanadian too.
>
Talk about coincidence. "Like a Hurricane" is on the radio just now.
--
Adrian
|
|
| | From: | Waldo Centini | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | 23 Jan 2005 20:24:54 GMT |
|
|
| Adrian Tupper surprised us with
>> Like Neil Young. He's Kanadian too.
>>
>
> Talk about coincidence. "Like a Hurricane" is on the radio just now.
Hmmm. I prefer "Like a hurry, Kane".....
--
Waldo
*** Is This A Dead Parrot I See Before Me ***
To respond through email remove removespam
|
|
| | From: | Gregoire Kretz | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Sun, 23 Jan 2005 00:28:53 +0000 |
|
|
| davek wrote:
> Gregoire Kretz wrote:
> > A country that gave us Laurie Anderson cannot be entirely crap.
>
> She's Canadian, isn't she?
Aren't you mistaking her for Céliiiiiiiine? :)
Greg
--
And it's partner found and partner lost
And it's hell to pay when the fiddler stops: It's closing time
No spam: ficus = no(n)
|
|
| | From: | Waldo Centini | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | 23 Jan 2005 10:37:45 GMT |
|
|
| Gregoire Kretz surprised us with
> davek wrote:
>
>> Gregoire Kretz wrote:
>> > A country that gave us Laurie Anderson cannot be entirely crap.
>>
>> She's Canadian, isn't she?
>
> Aren't you mistaking her for Céliiiiiiiine? :)
Kéline....
--
Waldo
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|
|
| | From: | Phil C. | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Thu, 20 Jan 2005 16:15:56 +0000 |
|
|
| On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 15:55:22 +0000, Krysia Thompson
wrote:
>On 20 Jan 2005 15:14:37 GMT, Waldo Centini
> wrote:
>
>>Krysia Thompson surprised us with
>>
>>>>Who, for the first time in their pitiful Merkin lives, wil eat a healthy
>>>>and nutritious meal....
>>>
>>>
>>> do you know what a "merkin" really is??
>>
>>
>>You mean that apart from the usenet-jargon for an onomatopoeic
>>representation of the way an American might describe him or herself this
>>word has another meaning?
>>
>>And is that meaning similarly derogative?
>>
>>Because I think it should be!
>>
>>Next thing you're going to tell me it's a womens wig worn in the pubic
>>region! Which I think is indeed a clever way of making an American useful!
>
>
>Of course it a pubic wig. ask any theatrical person :PPPP
>didn't know it was STRICTLY women's thing....hhhmmmmmmmmm
>
>as for the usefulness of Americans....weeeellll...some are, just
>like with anyone else anywhere else
I suspect Waldo was frightened by a merkin in his pram and has been
traumatised ever since.
Talking of frightening things, Mrs C asked the other day why zombies
in horror films are always flesh-eating. I responded that
housework-doing zombies probably wouldn't make for very exciting
films. Just a thought .
--
Phil C.
|
|
| | From: | graham | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Thu, 20 Jan 2005 21:24:43 GMT |
|
|
|
"Waldo Centini" wrote in message
news:Xns95E49449AF75CWaldo@130.133.1.4...
> Phil C. surprised us with
>
>>>And then chocolate-glazed and served hot to customers.
>>
>> Khokolate-glazed and served hot to kustomers, surely?
>>
>
> Who, for the first time in their pitiful Merkin lives, wil eat a healthy
> and
> nutritious meal....
>
> --
The wife of a boss of mine was living in Germany just after the war and
received a food parcel from the US with a package of strange flour in it.
So she and her mother mixed it with ordinary flour and made bread. Sometime
later, they found that the strange flour was the ashes of someone that had
been sent back for burial.........
Graham
|
|
| | From: | Phil C. | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Fri, 21 Jan 2005 12:53:33 +0000 |
|
|
| On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 21:24:43 GMT, "graham" wrote:
>The wife of a boss of mine was living in Germany just after the war and
>received a food parcel from the US with a package of strange flour in it.
>So she and her mother mixed it with ordinary flour and made bread. Sometime
>later, they found that the strange flour was the ashes of someone that had
>been sent back for burial.........
Isn't that just typical of Europeans. They get a food parcel from the
USA and instead of being grateful they just find an excuse to moan.
--
Phil C.
|
|
| | From: | Rowan Malin | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Thu, 20 Jan 2005 17:21:09 -0500 |
|
|
|
"graham" wrote in message
news:vkVHd.131430$8l.33200@pd7tw1no...
>
> "Waldo Centini" wrote in message
> news:Xns95E49449AF75CWaldo@130.133.1.4...
>> Phil C. surprised us with
>>
>>>>And then chocolate-glazed and served hot to customers.
>>>
>>> Khokolate-glazed and served hot to kustomers, surely?
>>>
>>
>> Who, for the first time in their pitiful Merkin lives, wil eat a healthy
>> and
>> nutritious meal....
>>
>> --
>
> The wife of a boss of mine was living in Germany just after the war and
> received a food parcel from the US with a package of strange flour in it.
> So she and her mother mixed it with ordinary flour and made bread.
> Sometime later, they found that the strange flour was the ashes of someone
> that had been sent back for burial.........
>
> Graham
>
According to this:
http://www.snopes.com/horrors/cannibal/cremains.htm
it's an old urban legend. Good story though - and on-topic!
Cheers,
Rowan
|
|
| | From: | graham | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Fri, 21 Jan 2005 00:26:53 GMT |
|
|
|
"Rowan Malin" wrote in message
news:35ap6qF4jicliU1@individual.net...
>
> "graham" wrote in message
> news:vkVHd.131430$8l.33200@pd7tw1no...
>>
>> "Waldo Centini" wrote in message
>> news:Xns95E49449AF75CWaldo@130.133.1.4...
>>> Phil C. surprised us with
>>>
>>>>>And then chocolate-glazed and served hot to customers.
>>>>
>>>> Khokolate-glazed and served hot to kustomers, surely?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Who, for the first time in their pitiful Merkin lives, wil eat a healthy
>>> and
>>> nutritious meal....
>>>
>>> --
>>
>> The wife of a boss of mine was living in Germany just after the war and
>> received a food parcel from the US with a package of strange flour in it.
>> So she and her mother mixed it with ordinary flour and made bread.
>> Sometime later, they found that the strange flour was the ashes of
>> someone that had been sent back for burial.........
>>
>> Graham
>>
>
> According to this:
>
> http://www.snopes.com/horrors/cannibal/cremains.htm
>
> it's an old urban legend. Good story though - and on-topic!
>
Most urban legends happen to a friend of a friend etc. The lady in question
swore it happened to her and since she was highly intelligent and a very
serious type with little or no sense of humour, I believed her.
Graham
|
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| | From: | Rowan Malin | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Fri, 21 Jan 2005 00:50:12 -0500 |
|
|
|
"graham" wrote in message
news:h%XHd.132719$8l.15421@pd7tw1no...
>
> "Rowan Malin" wrote in message
> news:35ap6qF4jicliU1@individual.net...
>>
>> "graham" wrote in message
>> news:vkVHd.131430$8l.33200@pd7tw1no...
>>>
>>> "Waldo Centini" wrote in message
>>> news:Xns95E49449AF75CWaldo@130.133.1.4...
>>>> Phil C. surprised us with
>>>>
>>>>>>And then chocolate-glazed and served hot to customers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Khokolate-glazed and served hot to kustomers, surely?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Who, for the first time in their pitiful Merkin lives, wil eat a
>>>> healthy and
>>>> nutritious meal....
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>
>>> The wife of a boss of mine was living in Germany just after the war and
>>> received a food parcel from the US with a package of strange flour in
>>> it. So she and her mother mixed it with ordinary flour and made bread.
>>> Sometime later, they found that the strange flour was the ashes of
>>> someone that had been sent back for burial.........
>>>
>>> Graham
>>>
>>
>> According to this:
>>
>> http://www.snopes.com/horrors/cannibal/cremains.htm
>>
>> it's an old urban legend. Good story though - and on-topic!
>>
> Most urban legends happen to a friend of a friend etc. The lady in
> question swore it happened to her and since she was highly intelligent and
> a very serious type with little or no sense of humour, I believed her.
> Graham
>
Of course. Even the most outrageous urban legends have to start *somewhere*.
Maybe she was the true source?
In any event, it gives a new slant to the 'misc' in uk.food+drink.misc.
Cheers,
Rowan
ObFood: Had sausage, mash, peas and onion sauce for dinner tonight.
Splendid!
|
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| | From: | Gregoire Kretz | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Fri, 21 Jan 2005 09:04:35 +0000 |
|
|
| Rowan Malin wrote:
> "graham" wrote in message
> news:h%XHd.132719$8l.15421@pd7tw1no...
> >>
> > Most urban legends happen to a friend of a friend etc. The lady in
> > question swore it happened to her and since she was highly intelligent and
> > a very serious type with little or no sense of humour, I believed her.
Always beware of the people who apparently have no sense of humour,
then. :)
> Of course. Even the most outrageous urban legends have to start *somewhere*.
> Maybe she was the true source?
You mean they were her ashes?
> In any event, it gives a new slant to the 'misc' in uk.food+drink.misc.
Arf. :)
Reminds me of the time I got bored with being the only one to bring
candy to work. So I brought some dog chocolates instead. Nobody
understood why I complimented them on their hair afterwards (except my
boss, have to play it safe sometimes).
Greg
--
And it's partner found and partner lost
And it's hell to pay when the fiddler stops: It's closing time
No spam: ficus = no(n)
|
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| | From: | Judith Umbria | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Fri, 21 Jan 2005 08:00:02 GMT |
|
|
|
"Waldo Centini" wrote in message
news:Xns95E46ECB33376Waldo@130.133.1.4...
> To be on the safe side I want to be cremated. That is, after my death, of
> course.
>
> I hope I won't die while in America, because there I would then prolly be
> Kreme-aited.....
>
> --
> Waldo
I can do that for you now, Waldo.
|
|
| | From: | Waldo Centini | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | 21 Jan 2005 09:13:39 GMT |
|
|
| Judith Umbria surprised us with
>> To be on the safe side I want to be cremated. That is, after my death,
>> of course.
>>
>> I hope I won't die while in America, because there I would then prolly
>> be Kreme-aited.....
>
> I can do that for you now, Waldo.
I think I'd rather be thwapped by Ophelia.
--
Waldo
*** Is This A Dead Parrot I See Before Me ***
To respond through email remove removespam
|
|
| | From: | The Reids | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Fri, 21 Jan 2005 15:05:52 +0000 |
|
|
| Following up to Waldo Centini
>> I can do that for you now, Waldo.
>
>I think I'd rather be thwapped by Ophelia.
you don't want to be tied up in a stall, fed beer, brushed and
massaged then rubbed all over with saki?
--
Mike Reid
Wasdale-Thames path-London-photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Eat-walk-Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" <-- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap
|
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| | From: | Ophelia | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Fri, 21 Jan 2005 15:28:32 GMT |
|
|
|
"The Reids" wrote in message
news:1o52v05tnao8gkbq0o4erajmus883v5gor@4ax.com...
> Following up to Waldo Centini
>
>>> I can do that for you now, Waldo.
>>
>>I think I'd rather be thwapped by Ophelia.
>
> you don't want to be tied up in a stall, fed beer, brushed and
> massaged then rubbed all over with saki?
The thwapping I can manage... as for all the rest?? I don't think so:) I
never did like saki!
|
|
| | From: | Waldo Centini | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | 21 Jan 2005 16:11:17 GMT |
|
|
| The Reids surprised us with
> you don't want to be tied up in a stall, fed beer, brushed and
> massaged then rubbed all over with saki?
>
But I am! By mrs. Waldo....
--
Waldo
*** Is This A Dead Parrot I See Before Me ***
To respond through email remove removespam
|
|
| | From: | Gregoire Kretz | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Sat, 22 Jan 2005 01:19:35 +0000 |
|
|
| Waldo Centini wrote:
> The Reids surprised us with
>
> > you don't want to be tied up in a stall, fed beer, brushed and
> > massaged then rubbed all over with saki?
>
> But I am! By mrs. Waldo....
Is this a new version of Cluedo I've missed or something?
Greg
--
And it's partner found and partner lost
And it's hell to pay when the fiddler stops: It's closing time
No spam: ficus = no(n)
|
|
| | From: | Waldo Centini | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | 22 Jan 2005 08:55:33 GMT |
|
|
| Gregoire Kretz surprised us with
>> > you don't want to be tied up in a stall, fed beer, brushed and
>> > massaged then rubbed all over with saki?
>>
>> But I am! By mrs. Waldo....
>
> Is this a new version of Cluedo I've missed or something?
Kluedo.
--
Waldo
*** Is This A Dead Parrot I See Before Me ***
To respond through email remove removespam
|
|
| | From: | Gregoire Kretz | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Sun, 23 Jan 2005 00:28:53 +0000 |
|
|
| Waldo Centini wrote:
> Gregoire Kretz surprised us with
>
> > Is this a new version of Cluedo I've missed or something?
>
> Kluedo.
Arf. :)
Greg
--
And it's partner found and partner lost
And it's hell to pay when the fiddler stops: It's closing time
No spam: ficus = no(n)
|
|
| | From: | The Reids | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:48:38 +0000 |
|
|
| Following up to Waldo Centini
>> you don't want to be tied up in a stall, fed beer, brushed and
>> massaged then rubbed all over with saki?
>>
>
>But I am! By mrs. Waldo....
I hope you're not being prepared for the exotic beef market!
--
Mike Reid
Wasdale-Thames path-London-photos "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Eat-walk-Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" <-- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap
|
|
| | From: | Ophelia | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Fri, 21 Jan 2005 18:38:46 GMT |
|
|
|
"The Reids" wrote in message
news:4ic2v0pmc64lhcn0519pfv05mgj7drjevv@4ax.com...
> Following up to Waldo Centini
>
>>> you don't want to be tied up in a stall, fed beer, brushed and
>>> massaged then rubbed all over with saki?
>>>
>>
>>But I am! By mrs. Waldo....
>
> I hope you're not being prepared for the exotic beef market!
or beefcake?
|
|
| | From: | June Hughes | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Sun, 23 Jan 2005 23:06:54 +0000 |
|
|
| In message , Adrian Tupper
writes
>Waldo Centini wrote in
>news:Xns95E7D9EF84D62Waldo@130.133.1.4:
>
>> Adrian Tupper surprised us with
>>
>>> e.g. Connecticut = Conneddicut. No?
>>>
>>
>> No. Konneddikut.
>>
>
>Klearly I missed the thread where this K thing started.
>Kan you enlighten me?
>
Kno.
--
June Hughes
|
|
| | From: | Andrew Marshall | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Fri, 21 Jan 2005 19:13:41 +0000 |
|
|
| In article , Waldo Centini
writes
>Judith Umbria surprised us with
>>> not sure about this - it seems the language changes more in this
>>> country than in the countries it gets exported to. Then old English
>>> words like catsup (which we've changed into ketchup) come back to us
>>> and we think what horrible foreign manglings they are.
>> Except that word was Indonesian and was katjep or something similar. We
>> are great borrowers, and I like that.
>Kecap. Methinks.
'Kaki Tiga' brand Indonesian sweet soy sauce is called both 'Ketjap' and
'Tjap' on this bottle, but I'm sure I've seen it called 'Kecap'
somewhere else too. I expect there are several spellings in that
language.
The sauce is described on the label as 'Ketjap Medja No. 1' and also
'Selalu Terpudji'.
I enjoy it greatly, mainly with roasts, grills, and cold meats, but will
soon have to find another source of it, as Waitrose have (to my great
annoyance) discontinued it, and I cannot find it anywhere else locally.
Regards,
Andrew.
--
Andrew Marshall, M0MAA, G8BUR.
Unsolicited advertising matter unwelcome. Offenders may be blacklisted.
|
|
| | From: | Waldo Centini | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | 21 Jan 2005 22:40:09 GMT |
|
|
| Andrew Marshall surprised us with
> 'Kaki Tiga' brand Indonesian sweet soy sauce is called both 'Ketjap' and
> 'Tjap' on this bottle, but I'm sure I've seen it called 'Kecap'
> somewhere else too. I expect there are several spellings in that
> language.
>
As far as I know a few years ago there's been some spelling reform in
Indonesia, where they moved from a more Netherlandicized (Is this right?)
spelling to a more (supposed) Indonesian spelling.
In that case the "ketjap" is a Dutch version, and Kecap is supposedly the
Indonesian spelling.
But since Indonesians wrote those little Chinese-type squiggly characters
before the Dutch colonisers arrived, one must assume that the only
"spelling" legible to Europeans *is* the Dutch spelling, so possibly the
whole exercise is entirely academic.
--
Waldo
*** Is This A Dead Parrot I See Before Me ***
To respond through email remove removespam
|
|
| | From: | Phil C. | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Thu, 20 Jan 2005 11:51:42 +0000 |
|
|
| On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 08:56:25 GMT, "Judith Umbria"
wrote:
>I recently read something about this. The book said that at one time words
>like flavor and honor and savor were pronounced save-aowr. Over time the
>pronunciation changed. For many words the spelling changed as well, during
>the time when standardized spelling was being born. No one can explain why
>those particular words did not change spelling in the UK. They did in the
>US, they just did.
Bill Bryson's book on the history of English (forget the title) has
got quite light, entertaining sections on Webster, who deliberately
set out to rationalise American spelling, and on theories as to
historic pronunciation. The latter is always rather speculative before
sound recording was invented - it tends to depend on, say, rhymes in
old poems etc.
In general, we tend to take for granted the similarities between US
and Brit spellings - there are far, far more of those than differences
- including bizarre ones. There are cases where spellings were
deliberately formed to follow classical patterns or even invented as a
conceit - receipt, debt, island, Thames etc. But in most cases I think
spelling has just settled down as dictionaries and literacy have
spread - even though pronunciation continues to evolve. In my area the
spelling of some place names hasn't quite settled down yet.
>The same book said that bury is pronounced berry universally. Wrong. I say
>bury and always have. I don't remember if my family did or not.
"Bury", as I recall, is one of those words where the common
pronunciation "berry" came from one Middle English dialect and the
spelling from another. I assume that pronouncing it "bury" is a
survival from that dialect or perhaps just the way it sounds with
certain accents(?)
--
Phil C.
|
|
| | From: | a | | Subject: | Re: The savor of flavour | | Date: | Thu, 20 Jan 2005 14:16:20 -0000 |
|
|
| > >I recently read something about this. The book said that at one time
words
> >like flavor and honor and savor were pronounced save-aowr. Over time the
> >pronunciation changed. For many words the spelling changed as well,
during
> >the time when standardized spelling was being born. No one can explain
why
> >those particular words did not change spelling in the UK. They did in
the
> >US, they just did.
>
> Bill Bryson's book on the history of English (forget the title) has
> got quite light, entertaining sections on Webster, who deliberately
> set out to rationalise American spelling, and on theories as to
> historic pronunciation. The latter is always rather speculative before
> sound recording was invented - it tends to depend on, say, rhymes in
> old poems etc.
>
> In general, we tend to take for granted the similarities between US
> and Brit spellings - there are far, far more of those than differences
> - including bizarre ones. There are cases where spellings were
> deliberately formed to follow classical patterns or even invented as a
> conceit - receipt, debt, island, Thames etc. But in most cases I think
> spelling has just settled down as dictionaries and literacy have
> spread - even though pronunciation continues to evolve. In my area the
> spelling of some place names hasn't quite settled down yet.
>
> >The same book said that bury is pronounced berry universally. Wrong. I
say
> >bury and always have. I don't remember if my family did or not.
>
> "Bury", as I recall, is one of those words where the common
> pronunciation "berry" came from one Middle English dialect and the
> spelling from another. I assume that pronouncing it "bury" is a
> survival from that dialect or perhaps just the way it sounds with
> certain accents(?)
> --
> Phil C.
I know some people from bury who pronounce it 'bury' - everyone else seems
to say 'berry' though (in whatever context)
|
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